SUBJECT: NEW AGE FORUM 19-JUL-92 FILE: UFO2971 ********* New Age Forum 19-Jul-92 15:51:21 R1: *SYSTEM*| Switching to Formal Conferences (R1) David/Moderator: Welcome George, OK, now for the rules, please pay | attention there will be a test! ..... | I'm the Moderator, the big boss here , if you have a | question then send a ?, if you have a comment send a !, I will | call on.... | each of you in turn. DO NOT interrupt the person speaking | until they are finished. Also.... | While you are typeing, at the end of your message send a set of | elipse like.... so we know your still talking.... | When you are finished end your message with a GA, which mean go | ahead... | An questions? MIKE HART: No David/the other 1: ok Teri Wheeler: ok David/Moderator: Oh, by the way, when your called on please send like an | ok..., so we know that your typing your message. Got it? | Ready to go? ga David/the other 1: ? David/Moderator: David > ga David/the other 1: ok... TIM GORDON: g David/the other 1: There's been some rethinking over Conference meeting | day/times? Is there a preference... Ron | I'm ready to go GA GEORGE D. HOPPER: ready David/the other 1: Sundays are good for me but most evenings (cept | wednesdays) are alright...GA Jason Reed: ! David/Moderator: Jason > ga Jason Reed: ok... | later in the day would be better for me GA Jeff Morrow: ! David/Moderator: Has anybody got any preferances as to day and times? ga | Jeff > ga Jeff Morrow: ok... | Being on the west coast, I would like a later time, if | possible... GEORGE D. HOPPER: ! Ron | ! Jeff Morrow: I know this may not be convenient for the people on the east | coast, so i'm flexible.... | Sundays are ok with me. GA David/Moderator: George > GA GEORGE D. HOPPER: Im flexiable also GA David/Moderator: Ron > GA Ron | ok... | Either earlier OR later is OK, but earlier would be better... | I am on the East Coast. GA David/Moderator: Ok.... | I would suggest that everybody send me a message as to what | date/times you prefer, then I'll work it out from there. Sound | ok? ga Joe Balsamo: David Jeff Morrow: Ron | MIKE HART: !GReat Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Joe > ga GEORGE D. HOPPER: ok Teri Wheeler: ok Joe Balsamo: What is the currently agreed upon time that everyone is | saying OK to? David/Moderator: Nothing yet, we were discuss this date and time, any | suggestions from your end? ga Joe Balsamo: It's 2:00 right now, right in the middle of the day for | me...I don't know...Of course I may not be in touch again 'till | mid August! David/Moderator: Planning on leaving for somewhere, say Cygnius 5? ga Joe Balsamo: Atlanta Jeff Morrow: David/the other 1: ? David/Moderator: Ahhh yes, of course, forgive me! Ok lets get started | folks.... Jeff Morrow: >yhay's = that's> David/Moderator: David > ga David/the other 1: ok... | Two questions. Did I see a posting that a software package had | been found... | ...for the newsletter? Also how was the conference...thumbnail | sketch...GA David/Moderator: Well... | I did find a software package for the newsletter that works on | the PC, it is excellant, and FREE!!!! As for the symposium.... | I thought it was great. I learned a lot and met alot of nice | people. It did get dry though in places.... | Joe, you have anything you want to say about it> Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: OK... | The symposium was excellent. I learned much from Stan Friedman | who is an expert on the Corona crash and the MJ-12 papers... | also, the info on the 14 witnessed abduction presented by Budd | Hopkins is going to, IMHO, make or break UFOlogy...finally, the | stuff on the mr. Ed Walters case presented by Jeff... | ntating as well. ga David/the other 1: ? David/Moderator: Anyone have any specific questions about the symposium? | David > ga David/the other 1: ok... | How was the database idea rcvd? David/Moderator: Well, from those I talked with they liked the idea, | though I did not have the chance to talk to Friedman or | anyone.... | else big about it. Joe did you mention it to anyone? Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: David... | No, I didn't think that it was my place, you being the official | rep for the New Age/UFOlogy section. ga David/Moderator: Ok... but now your a big wig too! ..... | I was thinking, everybody, of drafting a letter up that we | could send, as a group, to the UFO organizations, and to .... | researchers like Hopkins, Vallee, Friedman, etc., explaing what | we're doing and trying to get there supports. Any comments? ga GEORGE D. HOPPER: ? David/the other 1: ! David/Moderator: George > ga Jeff Morrow: ! GEORGE D. HOPPER: Yeah...I think you may get some flake...other ufo | organizations arent very co-operative...as a rule. ga David/Moderator: Good point... | David > ga Ron | ? David/the other 1: ok...still a good idea...At the very least it | documents attempts and responses. | ...ga David/Moderator: Jeff > ga Jeff Morrow: ok... | I'm going to get on my soap box for a minute here (groans from | all)... | Before we can ask for help or information from other parties... | we have to decide what it is we are doing with this project.... | I'm in favor of trying to increase the amount of KNOWLEDGE | about the UFO... David/the other 1: ! Jeff Morrow: phenomena, not just keep a large catalog of rehashed data. | Having said that, it is no small matter... | to address the mechanics of putting that formula in place. I | think the... | kind of things Jason has been doing with the K2 reports is | going... | in the right direction. Comments? GA David/Moderator: Well... | I like the fact that Vallee mentioned in his paper for the | symposium how a UFO database should be formed, and Ron here.... MIKE HART: ! David/Moderator: has made some interesting comments as well. What we | need, what all UFO researchers need, is a central point from | which they... | can gather and input data... | Ron > ga Ron | ok... | My turn on the soapbox!... | I think that two issues need to be addressed right away... | (1) Who will use it, i.e., who are the targeted users... | (2) What are the information sources | ... | ga Jeff Morrow: ! Jason Reed: ! Ron | ! David/Moderator: David > ga David/the other 1: I pass my comment to Mike. Gotta mull this a bit. | ga David/Moderator: Mike > ga MIKE HART: ok... | I think that everyone agrees that a database you have been | talking... | about is a great idea and you should, we should all lend our | support... | just keep in mind that you need to push the issue with all | the... | parties interested as I have seen, for 10 years now, this | idea... | discussed in the usual circles, with no results...ga David/Moderator: Mike... | Thanks for the support, and you are very correct in what your | saying!... | Jeff > ga Jeff Morrow: ok... | I agree that Ron has two very valid points. The information | sources... | is an issue that must be addressed before anything else. I | think that... | much of the information available today is not information in | the... | sense that it provides no verifyable evidence, or testable | claims.... | How do we sort that issue out with the resources we have. I | think... | collectively we have the intelligence, but what about the time | and ... | financial resources. Once we have sorted out the data source | problem... | it will be more clear who can benefit from this data. GA David/Moderator: Jason > ga Jason Reed: One thing...do *we* have the resources and manpower to do a | good ... | job with both a NL and a dbase or should we concentrate on | one... | and make sure we do it right...thoughts? GA Deb Carlen: ! David/Moderator: Jason, | Good point, IMHO I would think the database would take | priority, but I am open to suggestions.... | Ron > ga Ron | ok... I lost my train of thought since the subject has changed | some... | We need to pin down the following: | 1. Who will use it | 2. what will they use it for and how | 3. Where does the information come from | 4. And how will the informaiton be selected (i.e. EVERYTHING or | just... | some specific things... | ... | From my point of view, as a serious UFO skeptic, I would | benefit greeatlly.... | from having a sort of quick & easy reference library... Teri Wheeler: I Ron | maybe not necessarily a case-by-case database. | ... | Maybe the database should be thought of as a catalog of sourts. | GA David/Moderator: Deb > ga,,,, Ron I'll get mack with you in a sec. Deb Carlen: Just wanted to say that we missed youat the NL seminar in St. | Louis ga David/Moderator: Nobody called me about it! hint hint! Deb Carlen: Hmmmm. Thought I gave you the date and time at the last | CO...? David/Moderator: About the database and Ron's comments.... | Who will use it? Anybody interested, including serious UFO | researchers... | What is it for...To have in one place all UFO evidence, instead | of it being spread out over such a large area, AND... | for once to have ALL the evidence available for people to | puruse... Ron | ! Jeff Morrow: ! David/Moderator: Where will it come from, that's a good questions...How | is it selected, another good question.... | Ron > ga Ron | ok... Good long range goal, indeed... | But, as i have been finding in going through some online | searches... | lately, there are MASSIVE amounts of data... | The question really is WHERE DO WE START ? GA David/Moderator: That's why we're here! Jeff > ga Jeff Morrow: ok.. | Well, where do we start? Do we go to MUFON and say *Excuse me | guys,... | we are a group of people on Compuserve who want to get this UFO | data ... Ron | ! Jeff Morrow: sorted out, would you please give us a copy of all your | files?... | We then wait until a truck backs up at our collective door and | dumps this stuff?... | How do we start? Is there some way we can begin to gather data | independent... | of the other sources, in case they are slow or reluctant to | cooperate? GA David/Moderator: Ok... | I thought along the same lines, let us collect independant data | and inlcude into a database, while working with the MUFON and... | the others.... | Deb > ga Deb Carlen: Nothing from here. Must've been an earlier ! David/Moderator: OK....Ron > ga Ron | Comment request withdrawn, i need to think a little more GA David/Moderator: Ok.. now MY turn!!.... | All UFO organizations, including MUFON and CUFOS have there own | extensive UFO computer databases.... Ron | ? David/Moderator: the problem is they don't allow most people to access | them, or they charge a 'nominal' fee. What is needed, as | Vallee pointed out... | is a central clearing house sort of, where ALL this data can be | gathered into one place. Its time to start sharing... | and I think that as a group we can get it all started!.... | Ron > ga Ron | Would it be possible to have a "gateway" from CIS into the | MUFON and | CUFOS databases. A subscription, if you want to callit that? GA David/Moderator: Yes... Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: sortof, we can set up a gateway, easily done, but like | CUFOS they charge like $1500 to access there system.... | as for MUFON, they won't get back with me on any details, | excpet they said that if I submit a formal request for... | information, they will search their systems for it.... | Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: OK... | Where is the money going to come from for this? Even | incidental expenses such as copies, searches, phone calls, etc. | etc. This is | why CUFOS and MUFON charge money... | onest with you, unless we really pare this thing down, it's | just not practical, IMHO. ga Ron | ! David/Moderator: Ron > ga Ron | ok... | Joes got a good point... | Is it practical or possible to ask for sort of a "shareware" | fee for | downloading of data from the libraries, or does that only work | for software. GA David/Moderator: Ok... | I suppose a shareware fee system could be set up, maybe, but | will the cost be at first? I mean if we all took what | information... Ron | ! David/Moderator: each of uses, and put that in the DB, it would take | awhile for that to all get setup, later on then the money issue | may come ... | into play, but I don't see how it really does right now. | Comments? ga | Ron > ga Jeff Morrow: ! Ron | I also wanted to agree with Joe on "paring it down" at first... | It looks like there's likely to only be at most 5 or 6 people... Deb Carlen: !!! Ron | working on this thing at first .... | ga David/Moderator: Jeff > ga Jeff Morrow: ok... | I think the money issue has to be adressed at the sta | [C | rt... | If we are going to acquire data, it is going to cost us. Do we | know how much?... | If we want to get going, we are going to need some form of | capital or other... | financing, or else we are going to be really limited in what we | can... | accomplish. If we cannot meet the other UFO organizations on | some sort... | of equal footing when we ask for help or data, we are going to | be really... | limited in the amount of clout we can weild. GA David/Moderator: Point taken.... | but I think that if really start on the thing and get people to | see that we are serious, and really TRYING to do something.... | then they will fall in later and help us out. Especially if we | can get Vallee or Friedman on out side!... | Deb > ga Deb Carlen: Excuse my barging in from the business point of view but PR | and articles/infor regarding your efforts re DB will generate | costs, and all Jeff Morrow: ! Ron | ! Deb Carlen: the people here will have online costs if hthey help you | (sorry msg got cut off) GA | ! | Get a grant or other funding now and you'll have enormouly more | credibility. David/Moderator: Thats true Deb, let me think that one over a sec.... | Jeff > ga Jeff Morrow: ok... | I think we have started in a manner of speaking. Kason has | taken this K2... | thing through a logical progression. He has seen a report | alleging certain... | things, and has investigated them. One thing he has uncovered, | is the... | NASA heliport. This has added to our knowledge, and perhaps | ultimately... | to the explanation of activity in that area. In any event, we | now know... | more about K2 than we did. This series of reports and | investigations... | can form the first bit of available data in the database. | Comments? GA David/Moderator: Excellant!.... | We have started, in a way, now lets take it a step further | though and put it in a form besides just messages!.... MIKE HART: ! Jeff Morrow: David/Moderator: AND, set it up in such a way so as other information, | other research can be added!... | Ron > ga Jeff Morrow: Ron | ok... I think we're looking at a spare-time, voluntary effort | for the foreseable future, until we have a "proof of concept"... MIKE HART: Z Ron | and that means a concept... Jeff is onto something and it kind | of | goes back to what I said earlier about creating a depository of | reference resources, and using an online DB to catalog the | holding... | I have to dissapear for about 5 mintues, but will be back GA David/Moderator: Deb > ga Jason Reed: ? Deb Carlen: That's it from me. Enjoyed it guys. Good luck. David/Moderator: Thanks for joining us! Mike/Irene > ga IRENE HART: Sorry my call waiting cut me off GA all... David/Moderator: Jason > GA Jason Reed: is the db a complete reference in itself or an index to other | files... | that contain more complete references? ga Joe Balsamo: ! | ! David/Moderator: Jason,... | I was thinking a index of sorts, with limited descriptions, | that would point the way to other more detailed files and/or | sources.... | Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: Pass, you answered what I was going to say. David/Moderator: Ok... Tony | HELLO! Just came back from Convocation! Fully charged! David/Moderator: Mike have you got anything you'd like to add about all | this? ga Mike | ok... | Yes, not to change the subject you are discussing, but I have | to leave and... | I will be in contact with you later as I am a professional fund | raiser... | and will start a project, if you desire to raise some capital | for this DB... | Please get back to me about later on tonight or when | convenient...Mike GA David/Moderator: Thank Mike, will DO!!!! | Anybody else? ga Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: OK... | Have we come to any kind of decision, yet, as to what we are | going to do, specifically? IF so, perhaps we should divide up | the | work... Ron | ! Joe Balsamo: ind of from the old school of plan the work, divide and | conquer, then work the plan. GA David/Moderator: Ron > ga Ron | ok... | I am collecting data, of sorts, already, that you and joe | already ... | know about. It's not a database of UFO sightings, but I'd | describe... | it as building a collection of reference resources.... | basically in the same manner in which I approach things I do... | professionally. | ... | For example, the book list. After that, I plan to compile a | bibliography of government reports (if any) and ... | a list of UFO periodicals and magazines... | ... | It's too early, from a "research" point of view, to start | building | a case database... | except as a prototype to show to prospective financers... | .... | What I don't know is what I should do with all that stuff. GA David/Moderator: Well... | I think the data you are gathering right now would be very | valuable to others when it is finished. As for the database... | well is it not feasible for each of us to transcribe on the | computer what case information we each have... | i.e. books, peridicals, journals, and basically start things | from there? ga | Anybody? Ron | ! David/Moderator: Ron > ga Jeff Morrow: ! Ron | Ok... It's a place to start. We got to start somewhere until | we... | can flesh out a viable concept... | I will have further comments in a moment, but need to think a | few minutes first GA David/Moderator: Jeff > ga Jeff Morrow: ok.. Joe Balsamo: ! Jeff Morrow: I have to go in a moment, but if there is anything I can do | to assist in the preparation... Ron | ! Jeff Morrow: of the database structure, please let me know. I have | fairly substabntial computer resources, and programming... | knowledge in a number of languages (C, C++, FORTRAN, Lisp, SQL, | Actor).... | I will be away for about a week, and will give this more | thought. If you ... | don't hear from me after that you will know the rattlesnakes | got me. GA David/Moderator: Thanks Jeff.. Jason Reed: bye jeff David/Moderator: I will keep you posted on what happens and what we | decide, I appreciate your help and support!... | Joe > ga Jeff Morrow: Joe Balsamo: OK, I have several comments and suggestions, so bear with | me... David/Moderator: Bye Joe Balsamo: First, i think that we need to start really organizing these | COs to take better advantage of the time. We need to come up | with an | agenda and we need to stick to it and try and get some things | accomplished... | Secondly, it is impossible, for you, David, to do all of this | yourself. You need to start being a deligator of tasks and not | try | and accomplish everything yourself... | ON the database itself, I agree with what has been said, we | need to decide WHAT it is for and WHO will use it, as Ron | stated... | it is a terrible waste of everyone's good time and money to | simply *do* a database for the sake of doing one. Let's really | pin | down what it is going to be used for. What types of | statistical correlations are we interested in... | what trends are we looking for, what hypotheses are we | attempting to test... | Finally, we really need to narrow down a small subset of data | and go after that. NOT based on what books people happen to | own, but | really try and fit our data collection into what we are trying | to accomplish... | the computer part is going to be the EASIEST part of all. | Deciding what the purpose of the project, the general thesis if | you | will, is where the work is going to come in. GA Ron Ron | ok...this might take a page or two ... | Oh, BTW, is it my turn, David ? | GA David/Moderator: Yes, ga Ron | thank you... | I dearly would love to be able to get my hands on a | comprehesive UFO... | database, but it seems that it is not practical to go through | MUFON or... | CUFOS for that. Financially practical. ... | SO, build our own... | But, as I said before, there are huge amounts of data to deal | with... | and it will take years for just 5 or 6 people to get it to a | useful... | point working in spare time on a volunteer basis... | ... | I think that we start small, but keep future growth in mind... | ... | For the foreseeable future... | the WHO is going to amount to Forum users. Regulars, temps, and | visitors... | Maybe 3 dozen people in all. | But, as word gets around and as the collection grows, more | people should start using it. I think we have to start building | a reference | collection and see what happens. What kind of access rates we | get. | .... | The WHAT is probably, at first, going to be the typical sorts | of ... | forum uses. ... | Specifically, it seems to occur rather frequently that someone | new | comes in (remember, I'm new myself, basically)... | and wants to argue a case, or insists on having references at | hand... | Joe- you remember *****... (deleted by moderator) | SO, the "hot" issues are going to be the current ones... Joe Balsamo: Jason Reed: ! Ron | And that leads back to Jeff's point earlier about reports on... | current cases... | I'm monopolizing, so GA and I'll continue later..GA David/Moderator: Jason > ga Jason Reed: Sorry, but I've got to go...catch you all in the forums. David/Moderator: Glad you could make it Jason, keep in touch! Teri Wheeler: ! David/Moderator: Teri > ga Teri Wheeler: I have to go also, but wanted to let you know that you have | my Joe Balsamo: ! Teri Wheeler: support...even if I am new! I'm not sure what I have to | offer, but I | ...would be glad to help. Bye for now. ga Joe Balsamo: bye David/Moderator: Teri, thanks for your support, and I'm glad your | interested. Keep an eye on the messages and I'll see you later! | Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: Yes... | Actually, I need to get going as well, perhaps we should | continue this discussion next week... | Is there any thing we can do or talk about to kind of close | this meeting in a manner that we can be thinking about for next | time? ga Ron | ! David/Moderator: Ron, any suggestions from you? ga Ron | yes... | I was leading up to the following proposal:... | As "hot" topics occur, someone (or anyone) uploads a short... | document with the facts and references... | Those will eventually form a foundation for a comprehensive | DB... | and in the meantime, they can be cataloged... | In effect, I think I'm talking about a newsletter, that is | cataloged... | and eventually turns into a database. GA Joe Balsamo: ! David/Moderator: So perhaps we should work with the newsletter first, | then expand out later? Joe > ga Joe Balsamo: As a start, I think that is an excellent idea and much more | 'doable' at this time... Ron | ! Joe Balsamo: I think that what Ron is saying is that we'd have a master | index that would crossreference to individual articles... | for example, this Don Ecker video deal. Someone could have | uploaded a short paper on what it was all about, and it would | be | cataloged in the index. ga David/Moderator: Ron > ga Ron | Yes... Joe caught my idea.... | David, I think with Joe gone, you and I are the only one's | left... Joe Balsamo: I'm still here, but I need to get going Ron | SO, we have lots of things to think about for next CO. I'd | suggest... Ron | having one NEXT SUNDAY to keep things moving...I am done, if we | have to clear out of here now. GA David/Moderator: Alright, everyone think on whats been said, we'll | message with each other this week, and meet back here next | Sunday...OK? Ron | OK Joe Balsamo: ok ********************************************** * THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo * **********************************************