SUBJECT: JACK MATHIAS DEFENDING THE PHOENIX PROJECT FILE: UFO1546 =========================================================================== BBS: Flite-Line Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 218 From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE To: ALL Recvd: NO Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 1/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Distribution: To All To: Michael Corbin - ParaNet Information Service From: The Phoenix Project Via Jack Mathias Date: 08/10/92 Re: Your recent message concerning the Phoenix Project Until your initial response to our release of the Dulce and K2 Reports this organization would have treated you and ParaNet with the common courtesy and respect due any serious researcher. However, your spontaneous and instant negative reaction to our reports caused us to reconsider. Let us review the facts. You reacted by issuing a public warning to the members of ParaNet, which was also widely distributed via other BBS's nation-wide. That warning contained language which implied the information, and the source, were highly suspect. Thus, single-handedly, you created a strong impression throughout the UFO community, that our information was false. Many sincere people, trusting your qualifications, accepted your warning. Tell us Mr. Corbin, how did you arrive at that almost instantaneous conclusion? The conclusion that the information contained in the Dulce Report was highly suspect and possibly false? At the time, all you had in your possession was the first part of the Report that we released to various BBS's. You did not have any of the exhibits or supporting documents contained in the second part of the Report - information, that was only available in printed form. You had not seen or had any opportunity to review the support documents. Let's face it, Michael - you blew it. The sequence of events, and the timing of your response, are the facts. The rest is self- evident. You took it upon yourself to make a snap judgement without examining the evidence. Is this the way that you evaluate all new information? It is difficult for us to believe that the ParaNet Organization would approve or condone such behavior on your part. Your actions are not what one would expect from an individual occupying a leadership position in the UFO research community, or ParaNet. You abused your position of trust and responsibility. In your message, you mention that you wrote to the Phoenix Project, after the fact and your preliminary judgement, requesting further information. You made the same comment in other BBS messages. You state that we did not respond to your request. You also imply, by insinuation, that this is a mark against us and a further indication that we are suspect. Let us give this further clarification. After being informed that you had written us, we checked our mail daily, looking for your letter. To date we have not received your letter of inquiry. Apparently, of all the mail we receive, your letter is the only one that has gone astray. We can only conclude that is was either lost in the mail or you didn't mail it. Did it ever occur to you to mail us a second request, when you did not receive a response to your first inquiry? Most people would do so. But, this was not the end of your attitude problem regarding the Phoenix Project. You did the same thing, again, issuing warnings, etc., with our release of the K-2 and the Ultimate Secret Reports. And, again, you had not seen or examined the supporting documents at the time you issued those warnings to ParaNet and the public. Continued next message. ... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap! --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 =========================================================================== BBS: Flite-Line Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 219 From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE To: ALL Recvd: NO Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 2/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- istribution: To All To: Michaell Corbin -- ParaNet Information Service From: Phoenix Project The first time was inexcusable, but the second and third time? Are you trying to set a new record for prejudice? Again, long after the fact, you admit that someone provided you with the supporting documents concerning K-2 and the Ultimate Secret. You also state, that you didn't notice anything of significance in those documents - and, you continue to issue messages containing warnings. Would we be out of line in concluding that your mind was already made-up? Fortunately, for the UFO Movement, other investigators and researchers don't share your opinion. You state in your initial message that "much of the information in the Dulce Report about Dulce and the Archuleta Mesa contradicts information already provided to ParaNet by other capable investigators." What information? Who provided it? How did you determine its validity? We formally request access to that information. We'd like to examine it ourselves. Can we obtain copies of "that" information? Now, let us get to the main thrust of your message - your investigation to reveal the personnel of the Phoenix Project. Congratulations Mr. Corbin. You've just won the Golden Fleece Award for outstanding ineptness in your investigation of the Phoenix Project. Your efforts thus far indicate a degree of amateur sleuthing more in line with that of a Cub Reporter trying to get a job on the staff of The Daily Sentinel. True to form (notable in many self-centered and Godly UFO Organizations) and lacking any real expertise, let alone concrete evidence, your message reveals what purports to be the results of your investigation into the Phoenix Project. The result: a conclusion based on quote - "coincidences that are striking and suggestive." That's it? -- Come now, do you expect us, or anyone else with a sound mind, to be impressed? How could anyone fail to note that there is no mention of any hard evidence or anything resembling same. Could we all be wrong as to what constitutes legitimate evidence? Or do you make that determination, as well? Seated upon your starry throne you seem to have elected yourself to be the final arbiter of the truth concerning the information revealed by the Phoenix Project, assuming the role of Judge, Jury and Executioner in a Kangaroo Court Proceeding of your own fashioning and design. Somewhere out there, there must be others that are just as impressed by this demonstration of arm-chair expertise and power, as we are. The results of your "so-called" investigation would be laughable if anyone ignored the tragic implications of what it reveals. What, if anything, is the Phoenix Project guilty of? Is it the fact that we dared to question and investigate two of the sacred cows of UFO-dom namely the ones you mentioned, i.e., "underground alien bases, and the cluster of government projects referred to collectively as Operation Majestic Twelve?" Where did we ever get the silly idea that revealing the truth about these topics was the objective we are all seeking? Did we miss an important briefing? According to our sources within the intelligence community, the Dulce Scam, perpetrated by the disinformation specialists of MAJI, better known to you as Majestic Twelve with help from the CIA and NSA, is considered one of their most brilliant success stories. Only Project Redlight comes close to achieving the same degree of success. Tell us, Mr. Corbin, where did we go wrong? Armed with that information from trusted sources, was the Phoenix Project out of line in pricking the bubble of that illusion? You might also note that we referenced our investigation to commonly "accepted" reliable information from "so-called" serious UFO researchers. Continued next message. ... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap! --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 =========================================================================== BBS: Flite-Line Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 220 From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE To: ALL Recvd: NO Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 3/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Distribution: To All To: Michael Corbin - ParaNet Information Service From: Phoenix Project We sent in experienced investigators, not amateurs, to check out the alleged Dulce Base. Those people knew what to look for, how to look for it, how to get answers, and are not easily mislead. If you do not agree with our findings, get off your posterior, go to Dulce, and check it out for yourself. In fact, we invite anybody to do the same thing. We're sure you'll find exactly what we did -- absolutely nothing to support the information supposedly provided by "reliable" (?) sources. We are not inclined to accept your arm-chair analysis of what is or isn't there or the validity of our findings. However, if you do get off your posterior and go to Dulce, and find anything of significance that we missed, we'll be more than happy to alter our stance and publicly admit we really missed something. The important item is to reveal the truth concerning the Dulce illusion. You imply that you're good at asking questions -- how are you at answering them? We have a few questions. Would you mind sharing with all of us, everyone on the BBS's and the public, what hard evidence you have that, without question, supports the presence and validity of the Dulce Base. In all fairness, can that evidence stand further scrutiny and investigation? Is it so credible that you are absolutely certain that it is genuine? Are you absolutely certain that any such evidence, if it exists, really pertains to the location referred to as Dulce? Is it possible, if such evidence exists, that it pertains to some location other than Dulce but Dulce was how it was labeled? Are you willing to offer that evidence to other investigators and make it available for public scrutiny. If your answer to any of the foregoing questions is "negative" or "no," we rest our case. Unless you have irrefutable evidence to present, made available for public scrutiny and evaluation, which invalidates the findings of the Phoenix Project regarding Dulce, K-2, or the Ultimate Secret, or our future reports, back off. Either put-up or shut-up. In other words, get off our back. The Phoenix Project is now making the results of its investigations and the evidence it has obtained, public. Anyone seriously interested in revealing the truth is encouraged to check it out. In fact we want them to check it out for themselves. It won't take an intelligent person long to discover that we report exactly what we find. We're not playing games with serious researchers or the public. Since we do not have unlimited funding, or the time to continuously monitor the on-going aspects of every area we have investigated, we do the best we can under the circumstances. We actively encourage other serious investigators to use the information we have provided as a basis for conducting their own inquiry and to carry-on our effort. Can you, Mr. Corbin, or ParaNet, or Mufon, make the same claim. Or, is it true that the results of critical investigations are held sacred by the elite leadership of these organizations, and are not shared with the member's of their organizations or the public? In your message, you insinuate that because of our past military and intelligence backgrounds, our area of expertise so-to-speak, that the motives of the Phoenix Project are suspect. You further insinuate that we are possibly government operatives attempting to send serious researchers off on a variety of wild goose chases. If that were true, which it isn't, or original, which it isn't, we're certainly going about it in a novel way. We are not government operatives, and we are not passing along disinformation provided by any government agency. To our way of thinking that concept smacks of "guilt by association." Bye-the-way, have you ever heard the expression "when did you stop beating your wife?" If anyone needed assurance that the truth regarding UFO's will remain a deep, dark, secret -- they can rest secure in the knowledge that you, are on the job. There are any number of government agencies who would welcome you with open arms. Expect some offers. Continued next message. ... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap! --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 =========================================================================== BBS: Flite-Line Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 221 From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE To: ALL Recvd: NO Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 4/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Distribution: To All To: Michael Corbin - ParaNet Information Service From: Phoenix Project We are sure that the honest and sincere members of ParaNet and other UFO investigative organizations (and there are many) must be seriously considering whether your qualifications, fitness and investigative ability warrant your continuance in a position of leadership within what used to be a respected research organization. The Phoenix Project offered what amounted to new information regarding the subjects covered in the reports released. The "meat and potatoes - the main course. You chose to ignore that, and went for the desert. Instead of making an honest attempt to validate or disprove our findings regarding the subjects mentioned -- missing the point completely, you chose to become obsessed with determining the identity of Phoenix Project personnel. For what reason? Do you intend to judge the validity of the information based on the credentials of those providing it? Some people would interpret that as putting the cart before the horse. Explain to us how or why the credentials of our investigators, or their identity, have any bearing on the validity of the information. Either the information is true or it isn't. It's as simple as that, or does that simple fact escape you. Your obsession with establishing the identity of Phoenix Project personnel could lead us to believe that "you" have an ulterior motive. How can we, or others, be assured of your motives. One does not need a brilliant mind to envision a scenario where the information the Phoenix Project has released is discredited because of an act of character assignation. This is a ploy utilized by not only the government but others who wish to suppress information. It has been used over and over again, with great success. Anyone familiar with the history of the UFO cover-up knows of and could cite you a dozen examples. Suppose we asked these questions -- would you be prepared to respond to them? Who are you? What are your credentials? Who are those holding positions of leadership in ParaNet? What are their qualifications and credentials? How do we know that you or ParaNet are not controlled by government operatives? What qualifications are required to hold a position of leadership within ParaNet? Who receives the results of investigations conducted by ParaNet? Are the results always made public? Are your records open for public inspection? Do you ever conceal investigative results from your members or the public? Every coin has two sides. If you can ask questions and demand answers, we claim the same privilege. If you think we will back-down because of your insinuations and innuendoes, think again. Regarding your message, and some of the items you've uncovered, that are "striking coincidences." We found the following interesting: We were unaware that anyone had ever attempted to create a corporation in Nevada calling itself the Phoenix Project. Due to the nature of our work, and to protect the identity of our personnel it would be a foolish endeavor. We never made an attempt to incorporate our organization in any State. We do not know, nor have we ever heard of, or met, an individual by the name of Thomas C. Naylor. This interests us. You will let us know what you discover about him - won't you? You suggest a possible link between our organization and America West. Sorry about that, but you're dead wrong. It has come to us from several sources that we're not on their list of favorite people. We will take this opportunity to categorically deny that we have any affiliation with America West, their publication the "Phoenix Liberator," or any other publication they provide. Continued next message. ... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap! --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 =========================================================================== BBS: Flite-Line Date: 08-10-92 (14:16) Number: 222 From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE To: ALL Recvd: NO Subj: RESPONSE TO PARANET 5/5 Conf: (29) StrangeUne --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Distribution: To All To: Michael Corbin - ParaNet Information Service From: Phonenix Project The fact that one of our investigator's forgot his camera on a quick trip to K-2 seems to intrigue you and many others. There's an old saying "Nobody's Perfect." Since we've never made the claim of being perfect, its absurd to expect us to abide by that standard. We did have a choice of including or deleting it from our report. After all, if we hadn't mentioned it, he would certainly look better. After discussion, we left it in because it was the truth. It's a peccadillo we'll have to live with, sometimes the truth hurts, or haven't you noticed. Do not expect us to respond to the other coincidences, suppositions, insinuations or innuendoes contained in your message. Since you brought up America West and The "Phoenix Liberator," why not turn your investigative abilities loose on their organization. Just suppose that Milton Cooper is, quietly, linked to their organization. That should intrigue you. Equally intriguing, is where their funding comes from - not the obvious subscription income - the covert funding. Or, how about the busy and numerous, off premise, writers that prepare the volumes of "Hatonn" material, and their use of high-speed modems to provide the copy for each weekly issue of the "Phoenix Liberator" and the dozens of books they produce. In our supposition, we're talking about a big-time operation. You might also check out their printing facilities, distribution centers, and world-wide circulation. Equally fascinating is their sudden rise, in a few short years, to the top of the New Age Movement. You might even think to ask yourself, why the New Age Movement? What possible connection is there with covert government UFO activities, or a New World Order, with the New Age Movement? The answer to that might be revealed, if you dig deep enough, and discover high-speed modem links between their headquarters and certain organizations located at Langley and Ft. Meade. Yes, if you really dig, you might uncover all kinds of interesting things about America West. However, since you don't take any information provided by the Phoenix Project seriously, this supposition will surely be labeled a fictional work. The product of over-worked imaginations and stressed-out investigators. Oh, well! As to your effort in trying to identify staff personnel of the Phoenix Project -- good luck. However, we do have to admit that you may get lucky and hit on a couple of them. However, since there are many, it is doubtful you will ever get beyond that point. It is not our intent nor will it become our objective to enter into an adversarial debate with either you or ParaNet, or any other individual or research organization. However, you started this debacle - we didn't. You implied our information was suspect and possibly false. Under the circumstances, we have every right to express our viewpoints on this issue. In our opinion, the public deserves the truth regarding the real story of UFO's, government involvement and the Alien threat. That should be our objective. It is up to "serious" researchers to really dig and reveal the facts and make them known. The Phoenix Project has dedicated its staff and resources, for over forty years, to that objective. Perhaps you'll agree that, that objective is more productive than entertaining the public via the BBS links with a side-show of petty squabbles and bickering between individuals and organizations. Signed, The Phoenix Project This response by the Phoenix Project to a recent message originating from Michael Corbin of ParaNet, will be posted on all available BBS's. ... "Mr. Worf, fire phasers at All" ... Zzzzzap! --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 BBS: Flite-Line Date: 08-12-92 (10:53) Number: 5082 From: JACK MATHIAS Refer#: NONE To: ALL Recvd: NO Subj: Advent's Reply to paranet Conf: (46) UFO(Fido) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following is Advent's reply to ParaNet. I am only acting as relay. August 12, 1992 To: Mr. Michael Corbin ParaNet Information Service From: Advent Publishing Company and Richard T. Miller A message from you, made public on many BBS's and pertaining mainly to the Phoenix Project, was brought to my attention. In that message you mention my name, the name of my company, and try to create an impression that I am involved in some type of activity and have relationships with others that is questionable. You state in your message: "based on striking and suggestive circumstances," that there is a possible connection between myself, Advent Publishing Company, and another publisher - known as America West and one of their publications "The Phoenix Liberator." You fail to clearly label your statements, or your presumptions, as "pure" speculation. I find your technique of using such speculation, and the end-result of that usage - guilt by implication - very offensive. The statement I refer to is - whether I am, or my company is, another incarnation of America West and their people. The answer is an emphatic - no. Let me set the record straight. I am a semi-retired electronic and radio and television broadcast engineer. I am also the sole owner of Advent Publishing Company. This Company is registered as a sole proprietorship, in Carson County, State of Nevada. I operate this business to occupy my spare time and to supplement my retirement income. Neither myself, or my Company has any connection with America West Publishing, their publication the "Phoenix Liberator," or any of their numerous publications. I do not know them, and I have never had any dealings with them. It should be perfectly clear and very obvious from what I've stated, that I find the activities of America West and the content of the "Phoenix Liberator" thoroughly disgusting. And that, Mr. Corbin, is the overwhelming reason for my use of a strong disclaimer, disavowing any relationship or affiliation with the above named organization, its publications, and their known principals. You also raise the question as to whether I am the same Richard Miller who, many years ago, communicated with an individual known as Hatonn and started an organization known as the Solar Cross. My answer may startle you. Yes I am, and yes I did. However, I have not been active in such activities for many years. I am answering this question only because of your attempt to make an onerous association between myself and America West, and the "Phoenix Liberator." An association that doesn't exist. I can state, however, without reservation, that the "Phoenix Liberator" is fraudulently using the name Hatonn and claiming he is the source of their information. They have used the name of a respected Being as a "drawing card" to entice the innocent and lend a degree of credibility to the rubbish they publish. I am not the only one who might feel this way. In closing let me quote a paragraph in a message sent to Jack Mathias by Don Allen, regarding America West and the "Phoenix Liberator," on Fido_UFO: "Jack - Received your message and here is something to mull over. Just remember that people who claim to channel "Higher Entities" should be judged not only on their words, but also by their actions and ethics. I have read a considerable amount of "Hatonn's" material and it does not leave me feeling edified, uplifted or enlightened. It is very condemnatory. It is, I submit, not of the Light. These aren't the words of a "Christed being"...they are Cooperish rantings from quick buck con artists and most likely the "entity" that Dharma" is "channelling" (If "Hatonn" exists at all) is most definitely some lower/dark astral being. By their fruits ye shall know them." RTM --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 ********************************************** * THE U.F.O. BBS - http://www.ufobbs.com/ufo * **********************************************