FILE ON MARGIN IS 80 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 629 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ************************ REMOVED 1 FEB 84 ****************** 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION 6 PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the system is 10 privatly owned, I retain the right to remove any and all messages which 11 I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the system, it will be 12 periodically purged of messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 13 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out of the 14 ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering the 15 message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to replace 16 the line. To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 17 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 18 ************************************************************ 19 20 *********************************************************: 21 I WOULD LIKE TO RECOUNT AND INTERESTING THING THAT HAPPENED LAST 22 NIGHT. AROUND MIDNIGHT WHEN I WAS GETTING READY FOR BED, I HEARD 23 A GNAWING NOISE COMING FROM MY LIVING ROOM. WONDERING WHAT IT WAS 24 I WENT IN TO SEE, BUT DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING SO I PASSED IT OFF AS 25 JUST MY IMAGINATION. BUT THEN A LITTLE LATTER I HEARD IT AGAIN SO 26 I CHECKED AGAIN. STILL NOTHING, BUT AS I STOOD THERE WONDERING 27 WHAT IT WAS I HEARD IT AGAIN. IT WAS COMING FROM OUTSIDE MY 28 WINDOW! OH NO! I THOUGHT, IS A MOUSE TRYING TO GET IN? I OPENED 29 THE CURTAIN TO LOOK OUT AND SEE IF I COULD SEE ANYTHING, AND I 30 HEARD A BIG SPLASH AS SOMETHING JUMPED INTO THE CREEK THAT FLOWS 31 OUTSIDE MY LIVING ROOM WINDOW. ODD I THOUGHT, WHAT WOULD A DUCK 32 BE DOING GNAWING AROUND MY WINDOW. NOT THINKING MUCH MORE ABOUT 33 IT I WENT BACK ABOUT MY BUSINESS. THEN A LITTLE BIT LATTER THE 34 GNAWING SOUND CAME BACK. THIS TIME I DECIDED TO SEE IF I COULD 35 CATCH WHAT EVER WAS DOING IT IN THE ACT, SO I TURNED OFF THE 36 LIGHTS AND SLOWLY OPENED THE CURTAIN. AND LOW AND BEHOLD, THERE 37 IT WAS, A BEAVER! HE WAS CHEWING AWAY AT A SHRUB THAT GROWS IN 38 FRONT OF THE WINDOW. I SHUED HIM AWAY, BUT HE CAME BACK SEVERAL 39 TIMES. FINALY AFTER A WHILE HE DIDN'T COME BACK SO I THOUGHT I 40 HAD GOTTEN RID OF HIM. BUT WHEN I WOKE THIS MORNING AND LOOKED 41 OUT HALF OF THE SHRUB WAS GONE. APPARENTLY HE CAME BACK LATER AND 42 GOT WHAT HE WAS AFTER. NOW THE QUESTION IS, WHAT WAS A BEAVER 43 DOING IN THE MIDDLE OF A RESIDENTIAL DISTRICT IN PORTLAND? 44 VERY STRANGE! 45 **************** CISTOP MIKEY ******************************* 46 47 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 48 Night closes in on the forest to find Tarn still sitting 49 beneath the tree. He has light a small camp fire to ward off the 50 darkness, but it is far too small to be overly effective. Worry 51 fills him and once again he is troubled. Where has Emer gone? 52 Always she seems to be off traveling somewhere. Fear fills Tarns 53 heart as he watches the flickering shadows. Is one of them Emer 54 lurking in the shadows of the trees, or has his fevered 55 imagination conjured up spirits to fill this dreadful night? 56 Leaving his place several times to see, he finds nothing but the 57 forboding undergrowth to satisfy his curiousity. Fearing to try 58 again to only return emptyhanded again, dejectedly Tarn collapses 59 against the tree and pulls his cloak about him once again to 60 watch the dying flames of the fire. 61 * Tarn * 62 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 63 WELL, HERE'S THE MORE I PROMISED.ONE OF EVOLUTIONS GREATESTS BOAST IS 64 THE CAMBRIAN LAYER. THIS DISCOVERY UNRAVELS THE EARTHS EVOLUTION, BE- 65 GINNING WITH VEGETATION, THEN BIRDS AND FISHES, LATER DOMESTIC AND 66 LAND ANIMALS, AND ULTIMATELY MAN. GENESIS 1:11 TELLS ABOUT THE FIRST 67 LAYER VEGETATION. ALSO THE FIRST LAYER OF CAMBRIAN. NEXT IN VERSE 20 68 THE CREATURES OF THE DEEP. AND VERSE 24 LAND ANIMALS. YOU CAN GUESS THE 69 REST. MAN EVENTUALLY CAME ALONG. MAY I ALSO POINT OUT THE DICTIONARY 70 MEANING OF EVOLUTION. A GRADUAL DEVELOPMENT OF WORKING OUT, TO OPEN 71 AND EXPAND. AS IN VARIETY. 72 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?DEBORAH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 73 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 74 The point I am to make seems a little off the curent disscussion but .... 75 It seems to me that the ultimate purpose of Creation/Evolution theories 76 is to come up with a means to justify our existance. It would seem that 77 our species suffers from an enourmous inferiority complex, and it is this 78 that perpetuates the diatribe that started most likely long before the 79 bible (Christian) was in any recognizable form. What is the cause of this ? 80 Is it the immensity of our world and the cosmos ? or is it a genetic 81 defect that has been passed down over the centuries. It will be interest- 82 ing to see if only our species has this urge (?) provided we ever do 83 make contact with another race. Assuming whales are intelligent (by our 84 standards) (?) do they feel the same as we on the land ? A biblical ver- 85 sion of creation would classify them as beasts, therefor inferior to man 86 , therefor lacking intelligence (read a soul).. But assume (pretend?) 87 that they were created (biblically) (Christian of course) with a soul also. 88 (Evidence would suggest that whales are intelligent, so the argument is 89 not entirely silly). Would they not too then have a similar account of 90 the "bible" i.e. creation as us land dwellers ? As the word of God is 91 the universal truth they should . Interesting concept, at any rate. Hope 92 fully someday we may know the answer.\ 93 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Mr. Tim %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 94 P.S. I apoligize for the rather disjointed prose, but ........... 95 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 96 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 97 deborah,alny i 99 whoops,gte strikes again,one miniut your typing and the next you have no 100 phone survice for 22 minuts.again 101 102 deborah,any idea who the person on disk b is who has so much faith in hgod 103 that he will not even sign his(her?) name? the statements reminded me of 104 "1984" way too much,"whatever he says goes" ? i dont call this wrong,only 105 a little narrow minded,what of the countless other "bibles" around like the 106 koran(jewish) bible.it is different then the king james/old testament/ 107 whatever.and also has the same proof going for it.not to mention the 108 1.99999+e37 eastern religions.who is right? i think nobody is because if 109 there was a "god" then most religions would agree with each other 110 the iran/iraq thing(war) has been going on for so long only because of 111 religion.there for i belive that there is no god.i think that all off the 112 bibles/words of god/whatever were invented independantly by most races for 113 the purpose of explaning things which they could not understand,like "why is 114 the sky blue" your avarage middle ages person would have said "god made it  115 this way" in the late 19 century john w.s. rayleigh found out it was because 116 oxygen scatters blue light more effectivly then any other due to its atomic 117 structure."why do we grow old and die?" is one that is now being answered by 118 science,it's not because we are going to metet our "maker" it due to natural 119 and man made toxens,hormone death clocks and improper nutrition.we can 120 explain every disease that affects man,none are caused by an unknown factor 121 (god/devel).oh well,i've spouted enough for now. 122 123 for the gentalbeing on drive b,minds are like parachutes-they oly funtion 124 when open. 125 126 The Man in Gray 127 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 128 p.s. for those of you who belleive in god as defined by the bible 129 read second kings 2:23,my interpritations on this is that elihja went to 130 bethal and was taunted by little kids.i quote"go up thou bald head" 131 at this point the good profit curses thease kids in the name of god.god then 132 sends 2 female bears to mangle/kill 42 little children for taunting 133 old man,i find it hard to believe/worship/ a god that would do this. 134 if you had been a traveler in this time and helped thease defensless kids 135 then you would be evil,going against the work of god 136 137 appatising thoughts eh? 138  The Man in Gray 139 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 140 Dear M.i.G.: the Koran is the Islamic, not Judaic bible. 141 I am enjoying the current return to bellicose argumentation, but I hope we've 142 not seen the last of the multi-author stories. Arguments I can get at work, 143 but good tag-team creativity is hard to find. 144 For myself, I find the current discussion rather meaningless. I mean, it's 145 already happened, we can't change it, or even directly observe it, so why 146 bother? I propose a new discussion more pertinent to the here-and-now but 147 no less esoteric: are we really here at all? 148 Or if that's too far out, how about this: Why can't educated adults learn 149 to spell or punctuate properly? I mean it's not THAT hard; we see it done 150 almost all the time in books and magazines. 151 Aside to Dr. Buck: I myself have observed that given the proper environment, 152 perfectly normal Homo Sapiens can become wild bores. 153 Illegitimi Non Carborundum, 154 && The Mad Actor && 155 156 157 ???;???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 158 Mad Actor,for you i apologiseda spellinc sucketh,i'll admit,but if i may "" 159 "it's not the quality of typing that counts,but what is said" 160 161 also,ever try typing on the kb of an rs mc-10? 162 in 1791 a rathr normal little funeral party was given for a 35 year old man,a 163 violent lightning storm caused the pal bearers to run for cover,leaving the 164 coffen later when they returned it was missing,never to be found.nobody knows 165 where the mortal remains of the greatist musical 166 geniuses that has ever lived,Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. 167 thought ya might like to know. 168 i was not around for the previous theology discussion,so it's new to me.you 169 never mentioned your position on the subject either. 170 as for"are we here"@i eat/think/move atoms/procreate/recreate/copulate/and yI am 171 the writing you speek of in books results from the distribion of money 172 if ya wish to pay me i'll type slow and dysgustingly correct 173 174 The Man in Gray 175 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 176 pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp 177 178 The piper walked into the inn's common room with his pipes carried in the 179 crook of his left arm. Standing at the bar for a moment he heard several of 180 the patrons raising their voices in loud dispute. 181 182 "The gostak distimms the doshes!!!" 183 "It does not!! The gostak is distimmed by the doshes!!" 184 "Enterprising and scientifically correct gostak watchers all agree!! 185 The gostak distimms the doshes!!!" 186 "If you have an open mind you are forced to parachute to the conclusion 187 that I am correct. The gostak is distimmed by the doshes!!!" 188 189 A voice of reason speaks out.. 190 "wait.. shouldn't we look at whether the gostak and doshes exist? and... 191 192 "How dare you question my beliefs? All credible scientific authorities 193 agree that the gostak distimms the doshes!!!" 194 "Reputable scientists have said and evidence favors the fact that the 195 gostak is distimmed by the doshes!!" 196 "Any scientist that says that is by definition not reputable!" 197 "I have proof!" 198 "I have evidence!" 199 200 Turning on his heel, the piper walks out of the common room. Those nearest 201 the door might have heard him whisper softly as he left 202 "...what fools these mortals be....." 203 pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp 205 212 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? 213 MAN IN GREY: NO, I HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE PERSON IS ON DRIVE B THAT MADE 214 THAT STATEMENT. INTERESTING CONCEPT THO I WOULD SAY. 215 BY THE WAY THE REASON THAT MOST RELIGIONS DON'T AGREE, IN MY OPINION, 216 IS THAT MEN GET CARRIED AWAY INTO WANTING FOLLOWERS FOR THEMSELVES. SO 217 THEY TAKE THESE BOOKS THAT TRULY HAVE ALOT TO OFFER IN WISDOM, AND KNOW- 218 LEDGE, AND THEY EXPOUND ON THEM, AND ADD THEIR OWN LITTLE INTERPRETATIONS- 219 WHEREVER THEY FIT. THEN THEY FIND GROUPS OF PEOPLE THAT ARE LOOKING TO BE 220 CONVINCED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, AND PUT THE SCREWS TO THEM. AND PRETTY 221 SOON THEY'RE SUPPORTING HIM, AND IN TIME THE THING GROWS. OR THEY SEARCH 222 OUT PEOPLE THAT ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF SOME TYPE OF TRAMA, AND THEY GIVE 223 THEM SOME HOPE FOR BETTER TIMES OR PERHAPS A PALITABLE REASON FOR THE 224 OCCURANCE.(not necessarily wrong but they should know when to lay off) 225 WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS THAT YOU CAN'T BLAME THE BOOK ANYMORE THAN 226 YOU CAN BLAME THE MANUFACTURER OF A KNIFE THAT FALLS INTO THE HANDS OF 227 A MURDERER. WHAT PEOPLE DO WITH THINGS HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THE 228 INANIMATE OBJECT ITSELF. 229 ALL: HERE'S A LITTLE SOMETHING OF INTEREST. THEOF PRINCIPLE RELI- 230 PENTATUECH (BIBLE) 3,448 YEARS 231 HINDU "BOOKS OF KNOWLEDGE" (VEDA) 2,475 YEARS 232 CONFUCION "GREAT LEARNING" (TA-HSUEH) 2,455 YEARS 233 HEBREW SCRIPTURES COMPLETED (BIBLE) 2,418 YEARS 234 BUDDIHST SCRIPTURES, "THREE BASKETS" 2,018 YEARS 235 KORAN (HOLY BOOK OF ISLAM) 1,326 YEARS 236 SHINTO KOJIKI AND NIHONGI 1,256 YEARS 237 BOOK OF MORMAN 146 YEARS 238 ALL PRETTY RECENT FOR A BUNCH OF FOLKS SUPPOSEDLY AROUND FOR MILLIONS 239 OF YEARS. 240 SOMETHING WENT GUNNYBAG FOR A MINUTE THERE. THE ABOVE IS THE AGE OF 241 THE PRICIPLE RELGIOUS WRITINGS. I MUST LEARN HOW TO CORRECT THESE 242 THINGS. ANYONE WANT TO GIVE ME SOME POINTERS? 243 !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!DEBORAH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 246 ****************************************************************** 247 TO MAD ACTOR: IF YOU SAW THE ORIGINAL CONDITION MOST OF THE MANUSCRIPTS 248 THAT ARE PROVIDED FOR THOSE MAGAZINES AND BOOKS WERE IN, YOU WOULD 249 PROBABLY SHUDDER. THE END RESULT YOU SEE IN THE BOOKS AND MAGAZINES 250 ARE THE WORK OF MANY PEOPLE CORRECTING STORRY FLOW (EDITTING) AND 251 THE GRAMMER AND PUNCUATION YOU MENTION (PROOF READING) . IT IS FAR 252 FROM BEING AS EASY AS YOU INDICATE. THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS SO 253 RIDDLED WITH SPECIAL CASE CONSIDERATIONS THAT EVEN SUPPOSED 254 EXPERTS HAVE DIFFICULTLY DETERMINING WHAT IS PROPER. SURE THE 255 PRINTED WORD YOU SEE IS ALL NICE AND PROPER, BUT REMEMBER THAT 256 IT HAS GONE THRU SEVERAL DOZEN PEOPLE WHO MAKE A LIVING AT THAT 257 SORT OF THING TO GET IT THAT WAY. 258 ***************** SNOT NOSE ************************************* 259 DR. BUCK: THIS ISN'T QUITE WHAT YOU ASKED FOR, BUT YOU SEEM TO NOT CARE 260 ABOUT SECOND HAND REFFERENCES TO CHANGE. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE 261 WONDER OF NATURE CHANGING THE FORM AND SHAPE OF LIFE, TAKE A LOOK AROUND 262 YOU. CONSIDER THE LOWLY CATIPILLAR SPENDING HIS LIFE EATING LEAVES AND 263 THINGS TO BUILD UP A ENERGY STORRAGE TO LAST HIM FOR A FEW WEEKS OF 264 INACTIVITY. WHEN READY HE BUILDS HIMSELF A COCOON TO HIDE AWAY IN. 265 THEN SOMETIME LATER A BEAUTIFUL BUTERFLY EMERGES. A CREATURE THAT 266 IS ONLY VERY VERY REMOTLY SIMULAR TO THE ORIGINAL CATIPILLAR IT WAS. 267 THE WORLD IS FULL OF TRANSFORMATIONS LIKE THIS IF YOU LOOK. SO IT 268 WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT IT AT LEAST WOULD INDICATE THE POTENTIAL OF 269 RADICAL CHANGE BEING ABLE TO TAKE PLACE IN ANY OTHER LIFE FORM. 270 **************** SNOT NOSE AGAIN ************************************ 271 Christians At War (words:John F Kendrick, tune: Onward, Christian Soldiers) 272 Onward, Christian Soldiers! Duty's way is plain: 273 Slay your Christian neighbors, or by them be slain. 274 Pulpiteers are spouting effervescent swill, 275 God above is calling you to rob and rape and kill; 276 All your acts are sanctified by the Lamb on high; 277 If you love the Holy Ghost, go murder, pray and die. 278 279 Onward, Christian soldiers! Rip and tear and smite! 280 Let the....... 281 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 282 At this point the bard, seeing that the song had penetrated to the arguing 283 patrons, took appropriate action. He ran for his life! 284 Oh well, at last the argument stopped for a while. 285 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~BARD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 286 My apoligies to any who are offended by the song above. It has been around for 287 a LONG time (first print appearance in 1913 IWW songbook!) I felt that it might 288 get across a point... namely just what this kind of argument can (and has!) led 289 to in the past. 290 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 291 To: Snot Nose & Man-in-Gray Re: carcinogenic properties of softdrinks 292 During the great cyclamate debate in the 60's it came out that SUGAR was 293 a carcinogen in far LOWER doses than either cyclamates OR saccharin! Why is it 294 still on the market? Well, it seems that the laws for "natural" ingredients 295 are different from those for "artificial" ingredients. Cute, huh? 296 (say, why don't we tailor some bacteria to produce cyclamates? Then they 297 would be "natural"!) 298 299 Dr. Buck: I am curious as to how creationism can predict anything. If we allow 300 God to take such an active role in the running of the universe- 301 ANYTHING can happen. Thus, the only way to predict anything would be to find a 302 way to predict God's actions. Somehow I find the thought ludicrous! (or perhaps 303 even blasphemous) 304 As for "an example of a species changing into another" I suggest that you 305 consider various disease bacteria. EVERY one of the various 'flus is a seperate 306 and distinct species. And there are records of which flu turned into which 307 other flu. If you want something "larger", please remember that that also means 308 more complex. Thus it should be obvious that it would take more genetic changes 309 (and thus MORE TIME) for noticeable differences to appear. 310 Most of the people who start attacking evolution from that angle usually start 311 playing "word games". ie "but those aren't really different species". Also, 312 there is a tendency to go "show me an intermediate form" & then when one is 313 found, to ask to see one intermediate between that and one of the previously 314 mentioned forms! I'm not accussing YOU of this, just trying to clear the air. 315 Also, on the subject of fossils, please remember that it is an EXTREMELY 316 rare event when something gets fossilized. Thus, you have to try to work with 317 what can be found. 318 319 320 Mikey: I see nothing unusual in the presence of a beaver in a residential area. 321 Remember, we have possums, coons, DEER, & (possibly) BEAR in this area! There 322 is quite a bit of wildlife in the coast range and a lot of it ranges into the 323 west hills. It is, after all, possible to go from Washington Park all the way 324 to the coast without encountering any built up areas (if you don't count roads 325 or railroad right of way). I had a friend who used to take such hikes 326 frequently. 327 __________________________________Leonard______________________________________ 328 ............................................................................ 329 Man in Gray, 330 On DB you said that "arguments are trading of ignorance, discussions 331 are trading of knowledge." While I agree with your sentiment, your defini- 332 tion is not quite correct. An argument, in relation to a discussion, is an 333 collected series of facts and statements that lead logically to the estab- 334 lishment of a proposition. Name-calling and such are violations of proper 335 argumentative tecnique, and if they are included in the course of the argu- 336 ment, tend to invalidate the position of the speaker. A discussion is a 337 larger catagory which includes the argument, but also includes any examina- 338 tion of a subject, even by yourself. In Latin, the word discussion has the 339 literal meaning of 'to shake apart', while argument comes from 'arguere', 340 which means 'to prove'. 341 .......................................................................Micon 342 343 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 344 Oh, Tarn, you don't seem to have the sense to leave the forest on your 345 own! I know that I've done much traveling of late, but it is something that 346 is not to be avoided, it must be done. I'll walk you to the road, my good 347 friend, and remind you that there are times when one must do for one's self, 348 and not always rely upon the good graces of others. I have been away from 349 these parts much recently, and will probably continue to come and go for 350 awhile. Though I am welcome by you, I feel that there are others who resent 351 my presence at the Inn, and I am not one to wish to cause them distress. 352 Because of that, I will come only on occasion, and take as little space as 353 possible. 354 I wish to tell you that I had my first opportunity to use the most recent 355 trick you taught me, and it worked well! I will use it sparingly, though, 356 and only on my own property. I will insert it proudly in my ever increasing 357 bag of tricks! 358 - Emer - 359 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 360 361 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 362 Micon,i was quoting a friend of mine who is a high-school debate champ. 363 perhapss the term "debate" should be used? oh well,i'll use argument. 364 to the giver of softdrink knowledge above,LIVING causes cancer.but i would 365 be interested in the source of the data. 366 Bard,where can i find a copy of that song? i like it. 367 this religion discussion/debate/argument is getting a little heavy for my 368 store of knowledge.it was however very interesting while it lasted,thanks 369 deborah. 370 The Man in Gray 371 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 372 ?!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 373 BYTHE WAY MAN IN GREY, ARE YOU IN SOME FASHION ASSOCIATED WITH THE DIAL AN 374 ATHIEST HOT LINE. YOUR P.S ABOVE WAS ON THE SAME SUBJECT AS THE TIDBIT ON 375 THE DIAL AN ATHIEST LINE THIS WEEK? JUST WONDERING. I'M A VERY OPEN MIND- 376 ED INDIVIDUAL AND LOOK TO ALL SOURCES FOR INFO. EVEN ATHIESTS AND EASTERN 377 IDEAS, THOUGH I AM CONVINCED OTHERWISE. ONE THING I DO FIND IRRITATING 378 ABOUT SUCH REFERENCES, IS THAT THEY ARE ALWAYS TAKED OUT OF CONTEXT, WITH- 379 OUT CONSIDERING WHY THEY OCCURED. 380 ALSO MY REASON FOR BRINGING UP THIS SUBJECT WAS PURELY ACADEMIC. NOT TO 381 TRY AND DISPROVE EVOLUTION. MORE IT WAS TO SHOW THAT WHEN THE BIBLE 382 TOUCHES ON SCIENCE IT IS ACURATE. THOUGH IT IS NOT A BOOK ON SCIENCE. 383 LET'S FIND ANOTHER DEBATABLE TOPIC IN THE FUTURE. 384 DENISE, WHERE ARE YOU? I FEAR YOU ARE MISSING SOMETHING YOU WOULD ENJOY. 385 OR ARE YOU THERE LURKING.......AWAITING INVITATIONS TO RETURN? 386 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!DEBORAH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 387 P.S. I TOO SEE MUCH SIGNIFICANCE AND TRUTH IN THE POEM ON CHRISTIANS, AND 388 ALSO REALIZE THAT IT WAS WRITTEN ABOUT BIGGOT OR PSUEDO-CHRISTIANS, WHICH 389 ENTAILS ABOUT 99.98% OF THEM. 390 MAN IN GREY: WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY THAT IF THERE IS A GOD, ALL RE- 391 LIGIONS WOULD AGREE? PLEASE EXPLAIN. 392 ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? 393 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 394 Well, everybody, 395 I left the inn about 24 hours ago and since then a swamp of questions 396 has appeared. I will attempt to answer all of them, but if I leave any 397 unanswered it was an over sight. 398 First off, adressing the topic of differences in religon, I would like 399 to say that Christianity is different from all other religons in one respect. 400 You see, if you like at any major religon, it is an attempt for a man to reach 401 God. However, if you look at the basis of Cristianity, it is Gods attempt to 402 come down and reach man. 403 Secondly, as for radical changes, you can say that all flus are similar. 404 I DO believe that some forms of life such as dogs have descended from a common 405 ancestor. However, there is no evidence for other totally different spieces. 406 In order to convince me, I would have to see the fossils of the transitory 407 forms. 408 As for the age of the Earth. Radioactive dating is the biggest bunch 409 of bull I have ever heard. It assumes that the decay started with none of the 410 daughter elements present. It also assumes that the rate of decay was constant. 411 Not to mention the assumtion that none of the parent or daughter elements were 412 added during decay. I will track down a list of facts supporting a young Earth. 413 and get them posted soon. 414 I think that close minded "I believe because God says..." was a joker. 415 Dr. Buck 416 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 417 Order now: 418 Get your very own Dr. Buck's primal fart stool. It's easy to use, just 419 sit on it and let the primal fart go. When you push on the pedal, Whooosh! 420 The pedal makes a spark and off you go into the wild blue yondor. The perfect 421 gift for an initiate in the primal fart therepy. 422 How much would you pay for this stool? Well, I'll sell it to you for not 423 $600, not $300, but $9.99. 424 But wait, that's not all you get. If you order now, you will also get your 425 own Dr. Buck approved crash helmet. Yes, this helmet will protect you from 426 landing spills after your flying thrills. (frying thrills?) 427 _____________ 428 To order Dr. Buck's primal fart stool, just call 1-503-230-1041. Please 429 give waist size when ordering. 430 ================================================================================ 431 DEBORAH,GREY,ETC, 432 TO THOSE WHO SEEM TO BELIVE THAT THE CURRENT THEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT IS 433 POINTLESS; REMEMBER, LOOKING AT OTHERS OPINIONS AND PRESENTING OUR OWN 434 CAUSES US TO LOOK AT OUR OWN VERY CRITICALLY (PROVIDED OFCOURSE THAT YOU 435 KEEP AN OPEN MIND). TO ME THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN TOOLS OF LEARNING. 436 IS IT YOURS? 437 438 EVAN 439 440 KEEP TALKING, SOME INTERSTING THINGS ARE BEING DISCUSSED, THAT RARLELY 441 ARE TALKED ABOUT REASONABLY. I MUST CONGRADULATE THE QUALITY OF THE 442 PARTICIPANTS OF THIS DISCUSSION. (EXCEPTING THE PERSON WHO FINISHED 443 THE LAST DISK!) 444 445 ========================================================================== 446 447 BUCK: 448 IT CAN BE AND HAS BEEN PROVED THAT IN A 'NEW' ROCK, ONE JUST COOLING 449 FROM A MOLTEN STATE SUCH AS MAGMA, OR A METAMORPHIC ROCK AFTER 450 THE METAMORPHIC PROCESSES HAVE CEASED THE RATIO OF RADIOACTIVE OR UNSTABLE 451 ELEMENTS TO DAUGHTER ELEMENTS IS ALWAYS THE SAME, SO IN RADIOMETRIC DATING 452 THIS IS ALWAYS KNOWN. AND RADIOMETRIC DATING CAN BE PROVEN REASONABLY 453 RELIABLE, THE DATE ACHIEVED BY THIS METHOD, ESPECIALLY RECENT ONES (LESS 454 THAN A COUPLE OF THOUSAND YEARS) CAN BE COLLABORATED BY OTHER MEANS. 455 456 457 EVAN 458 459 ============================================================================ 460 461 It was 9:45 in the Ack Emma, thirty-fifth day of Feistbacch in 462 the Year of the Leather Bound Book. I'd been assigned traffic detail, 463 crowd control to be exact, in the xeno section of town. Somebody up 464 there doesn't like me. His name is Captain Malone. My name's 465 Greeshnakh. I'm a cop. 466 I was working the day watch out of Sentient Central when the call 467 came in. The phone announced that Malone was on the line, so I quickly 468 sucked in my three soft extensibles and closed all but by two top eyes 469 like I always do when I talk to Terrans. That left only my two hard 470 appendages visible to the phone. Those buggers will swear up and down that 471 they're not prejudiced, but just psxxt even a little bit of green when 472 one's around and see what happens. Malone always calls me when there's 473 a job in Xeno section. I steadied by stomaches and keyed the phone. 474 "Moanin' Greese." he smiled. His eyes didn't track me right. He 475 had his screen off. "Some Wiz from the Cluster is giving a demo on pulling 476 moons out of orbit at the Ekks University today. We've been requested 477 for crowd control. Think you can handle it? 478 I though about it. The Ekks weren't such bad guys, really. At least 479 they had slime. No telling what else would be in the neighborhood, though. 480 "Right on it, Captain." the phone automatically translated by spiracle 481 chatter into Terran. 482 Once I'd pulled up to the college campus, I had to be really 483 careful. The little green pustules were everywhere, and I had to walk 484 on my three most delicate extensibles to keep from stepping on them. 485 The University itself was a wonder to behold. The Ekks had taken a 486 liking to the Terran alphabet, and were using it for their modern 487 architecture. Huge star marble letters a full two meters tall (gigantic 488 by Ekks standards) spelled out EKK COLLEGE in the finely mosaic tiled 489 mall. 490 491 ********************* chek in tomorrow........daver********************* 492 493 &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&" 494 DEBORAAH, ET AL: 495 Ok, one last comment from me, and then I'll leave this be. If you can 496 find it, please check out ANALOG, November 1982. This is one of the 497 most complete rebuttals of creationism I have read in quite a while. 498 Simply, it points out something not often cited; that creationism is 499 simply not CONSISTANT with all of the other know facts which must be 500 true for our universe to operate. I will give some brief excerpts, with 501 credit going to Stephin Goldin, "Creationism Versus the Lightbulb". 502 503 "...But let's step outside thier framework for a moment. 504 After all, ture science is not only internally consistent, but 505 it must be consistent with all the other sciences as well.... 506 Electricity is such a basic part of modern life that we take it pretty 507 much for granted...The behavior of electricty is derived from 508 equations that are part of electro-magnetic theory. We don't know 509 everything about electromagnetism either, as physicists will gladly 510 tell you, but the theory's equations correctly predict how electricity 511 works in real life...We can use the theory to predict how light should 512 react under certain circumstances...as anyone who has seen a rainbow 513 can attest...W[through quantum mechanics] we have developed the principles 514 of spectroscopy, one of the major tools of astronomy...From the theory 515 of gravitation, we know how massive and how far away from us the sun is... 516 If the stars ARE other suns, then we know how bright they are because they 517 generate energy and light according to the same principles that apply 518 to our sun...we can therefore tell how far away they are. It turns out 519 to be very far indeed....Wait a minute, back to the electromagnetic 520 theory, the one that predicts lightbulbs should work. That self-same 521 theory predicts that light can travel only at finite speed. Yet... 522 light must have taken billions of years to reach us. At last the point 523 becomes clear. If, as the creationists claim, the universe is only 524 10,000 years old, how could light reach us from billions of lightyears 525 away?... 526 527 I know I am inviting some pokes at the holes I have left for brevity, 528 so please read the article before rebuttal. The points are that if I 529 were to base my scientific researches on creationist dogma, I could NOT 530 predict any facet of reality which can be viewed by independant 531 observers. It is not consistant with the vast body of knowledge and 532 observations currently in hand, no used to predict any new data. 533 534 nuff said. 535 536 GENERAL MACAIBO 537 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! 538 ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 539 General: 540 Nothing personal, but that argument is very weak. If a divine being wanted 541 to create other stars, he would also create the light from Earth to the stars. 542 As a matter of fact, he could have just created the light and that the stars! 543 (HIGHLY unlikely, though) 544 Evan: 545 The same principle applies. A divine being would create rocks with 546 daughter elements already in place. This would be much better then creating 547 the rocks with starting ratios. 548 Dr. Buck 549 ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 550 "History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any 551 rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand 552 up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a 553 religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable 554 pleasure from fiddling with it"-- R.A.Heinlein 555 Is it my imagination or is the spelling getting better out here? 556 && The Mad Actor && 557 P.S.-- I am a Christian, albeit a strange one. I have dandruff, too.-TMA 558 -------- 559 To:All 560 Re:The Discussion 561 562 It would seem to me that it would take a pretty rotten diety 563 to create fake information for us to discover, thusly leading us 564 in the wrong direction tobase our scientific theories on. 565 566 ----Nuff Said... 567 ???????????????????????????????????????? 568 somebody left the ll at 40 again,oh well 569 deborah,my rationall is this-if one god 570 existed then there would only be one 571 correct bible/word of god/religion. 572 o.k.`so it's a little slim. 573 as for american athiests i am not a 574 member but i might join soon,yes,i got 575 that little dity from todays tape. 576 plagerism,i believe it's called,from now 577 on i'll use my ""'s like i should. 578 new topic,insanity`plea in the courts. 579 should we allow it or not? if ya don't 580 want to discuss that then how about the 581 quality of todays education? 582 583 Nomore then one hour ago i took my 584 beloved terminal/modem/wires/power 585 supply and other junk over to a friends 586 house to show her bwms,the religion 587 discussion made ler infuriated.she 588 thought that we were all stupid people 589 for trying to debate the word of god. 590 i don't know,maby it was the end of 591 a 28 day cycle for her.am I speling maby 592 right,it does'nt look like it. 593 I have endevered to give to board 594 one trivial fact a day for your enjoymen 595 mozart was a start,for today... 596 597 beethoven poured cold water over his 598 head to"stimulate the brain" 599 600 your teeth are composed of "modified 601 papillae of the mucous membranes of your 602 mouth,heavily impregnated with lime salt 603 s" 604 daver,as a published sf author i can 605 606 give you a few hints that were given to 607 me,city locations should make sence,like 608 "north". give`a better explination of 609 the size of the cop.use names people can 610 pronounce,"nicolas john" is one i use. 611 on the plus side,you did'nt use any tech 612 talk that a reader might not understand. 613 you made your protagonist human in some 614 respects,people cant relate to aliens at 615 all.it looks like one i'll want to 616 contribute to. 617 The Man in Gray 618 ???????????????????????????????????????? 619 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 620 621 Deborah, you exite me.Your stimulating 622 conversation keeps me up to the wee hour 623 please dont leave this system 624 625 Your enthralled admirer, 626 627 Aqualung 628 629 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >